body { background-color: #000000; background-image: url("images/hubbleultradeepfield.jpg"); text-align: justify; /* text-indent: 0.75cm; */ margin-left:1cm; margin-right:1cm; margin-top:0.5.cm; margin-bottom:0.5.cm; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; font-family: arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000; vertical-align:text-top; } a:link {color:#000000;} a:visited {color:#214370;} a:hover {color:#FF1166;font-weight:bold;} a:active {color:#0000FF;} .bold {font-weight: bold;} .cntr {text-indent:0cm; text-align:center;} .indent0 {text-indent:0cm;} .indent1 {text-indent:0.1cm;} .ital {font-style:italic;} .left {text-align: left;} .nodec {text-decoration:none;} .noindent {text-indent:0cm;} .nomarbot {margin-bottom:0pt;} .nomartop {margin-top:0pt;} .nomartopbot {margin-top:0pt;margin-bottom:0pt;} .notbold {font-weight:normal} .mar6 {margin-top:6pt;margin-bottom:6pt;} .top {vertical-align:top;} .underline {text-decoration:underline;} .right {text-align: right;} .sup {vertical-align:sup;font-size:8pt;} .timesnewroman {font-family:Times New Roman;} .marlr {margin-left:1.5cm;margin-right:1.5cm;} .white {color:#FFFFFF;} .blue {color:#0000FF;} .red {color:#FF0000;} .sz070 {font-size:8pt;} .sz075 {font-size:9pt;} .sz080 {font-size:10pt;} .sz090 {font-size:11pt;} .sz08pt {font-size:8pt;} .sz09pt {font-size:9pt;} .sz10pt {font-size:10pt;} .sz11pt {font-size:11pt;} .sz12pt {font-size:12pt;} .sz14pt {font-size:14pt;} .sz16pt {font-size:16pt;} .sz18pt {font-size:18pt;} .sz22pt {font-size:22pt;} td { text-align:justify; vertical-align:top; text-indent:none; } td2 { text-align:left; vertical-align:top; text-indent:none; } li { margin-bottom:6pt; } .quot { margin-left:1.5cm; margin-right:1.5cm; font-weight:bold; font-size:11.5pt; text-indent:0cm; } .quot { margin-left:1.0cm; margin-right:1.0cm; font-weight:normal; font-size:12pt; text-indent:0; margin-top:0; } .subhead { text-align: left; text-indent: 0cm; color: #000000; font-size:13pt; font-weight:bold; font-style:italic; margin-top:12pt; margin-bottom:12pt; } h1 { text-align: center; color: blue; font-size:18pt; font-weight:bold; margin-top:20px; } h2 { text-align:left; color: black; font-size:14pt; font-weight:bold; text-indent:none; } h3 { text-align:left; color: black; font-size:12pt; font-weight:bold; text-indent:none; } .ref { font-variant:small-caps; font-weight:bold; margin-top:0; margin-bottom:0; font-size:9pt; } .txt { margin-top:0.5cm; margin-bottom:0.5cm; margin-left:1cm; margin-right:1cm; } .txt2 { font-size:14px; text-align:left; } .vnav { margin-top:12pt; margin-left:6pt; text-indent:0cm; text-align:left; font-weight:bold; text-decoration:none; } .subnav { margin-top:0pt; margin-bottom:0pt; margin-left:12pt; text-indent:0cm; text-align:left; font-weight:normal; font-size:10pt; text-decoration: none; } .afptitl { text-align: center; color: blue; font-size:14pt; font-weight:bold; margin-top:10pt; margin-bottom:0pt; } .afpsubtitl { text-align: center; color: black; font-size: 12pt; font-weight:bold; margin-top:0pt; }
American Flag Looking Up
With Jerry and Ron


Grow in Wisdom
 

Home

Wisdom

Biography

Politics

Blog

Religion

Economics

Society

Poetry and Hymns

Photos

Bibliography

Gay Christians Best Friend

Worldwide AIDS Crisis

 

 

Search this Site with
Google



 

Website Developed
by
Dimen, Inc.

Political Discussion (and Meltdown) With A Typical Liberal

 

Participants:
Paul - Liberal
Jerry - Conservative
RS, BH, FY, JG - innocent and unwilling bystanders



.

From: Paul and BH
Sent: Saturday, February 04
To: Jerry and RS;
cc: - FY and JG
Subject: Amway & Quixtar

Hi Jerry & RS,

I just learned last night that Amway Quixtar is the largest financial supporter of the evil hate filled hostile Anti-Gay Group “NOM”. Are you still associated with Amway & Quixtar? If so, please speak out and tell the evil people at the top to stop their promotional campaigns of evil hate. They need to hear from inside their organization.

Thanks,

Paul


.

From: Jerry
Sent: Saturday, February 04
To: Paul and BH
cc: - RS, FY, JG
Subject: Re: Amway & Quixtar

Hi Paul and B,

Thanks for the email. It makes me angry and sick to my stomach when I hear about anybody opposing gay marriage. Those bigots use the same arguments used by people who supported slavery in the 1850s. They use the same arguments used by people who opposed having black people in the military in the 1940s. I’ll be glad to protest Amway’s financial support of NOM (National Organization for Marriage) as you suggested.

I’m already on record confronting right-wing homophobic bigots on the marriage issue. Here’s a couple of things I wrote, in case you want to check them out:
http://www.lookingup.us/soc/rebuttal.php  (Email to Limbaugh, Hannity and O’Reilly) and
http://www.lookingup.us/soc/alrantel.php  (Rebuttal to al Rantel – a gay conservative).

But first, you’ve got to be as active as I am at confronting bigots. Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton (among other Democrats, including Rev. Fred Phelps) have come out and spoken against gay marriage. This level of hypocrisy should not go unchallenged. These evil people must be faced up to. As soon as you write to President Obama and Clinton that you oppose them for their anti-gay marriage stand, and that you will no longer support them until they change, then I will quickly send my letter to Amway.

Oh, wait, I just found out something. I’ve searched the Internet for information about Amway supporting NOM. Couldn’t find anything. In fact, NOM is very secretive about its supporters and have not released any list of supporters since 2008. Also I found out that Amway doesn’t support such causes; the owners of Amway do, with their own money, but the corporation Amway does not. So, I wonder, where did you get your information about Amway? Surely you didn’t receive one of those liberal hoax emails – you know, the kind that tells blatant lies about conservatives – and dunderheads believe it. Surely you didn’t receive one of those and pass it on to me without checking it out first? I know you must be smarter than that.

So, tell me, please, your source of information about Amway supporting NOM. I would like to see it verified before I commit myself to confrontation.

But that does not take you off the hook, because President Obama’s and Hillary Clinton’s statements are public record. I still expect you to write to those evil people, Obama and Clinton, and tell them you will no longer support them until they change their stand on gay marriage. I suppose you’ve already confronted Rev. Fred Phelps; could you please send me a copy of what you told him? Thanks.

Best wishes, as always,

Jerry
Los Angeles, CA


.

From: Paul
Sent: Saturday, February 04,
To: JB and RS
Subject: RE: Amway & Quixtar

Hi Jerry,

Very glad to hear about your active efforts, that’s a wonderful thing! BH & I too are extremely active in many many very fruitful ways. On 11-22-2011 the NOM supporters list was released by Supreme Court order which also revealed that the top 10 supporters amount to 90% of their support. This was also once again discussed on the Rachel Maddow show. The founders efforts and the company cannot be separated and therefore are both morally culpable, even if they have divested of the company(s), it’s their history. Contemporaneously most who attach the label conservative to themselves are mostly/primarily and vehemently interested in conserving some pretty bad things, things I seriously doubt you are hoping to conserve. Jerry you seem to self attach/label yourself conservative. What does that mean? What are you conserving?

Peace, love, equality, and just say no to plate tectonics,

Paul


.

From: Jerry
Sent: Sunday, February 05,
To: Paul
cc: RS, FY, JG
Subject: Re: Amway & Quixtar

Hi Paul,

So happy to hear about your activism to support gay marriage and gay life. We need people like you to keep up the pressure on those who would deny us basic human rights. Thank you telling me about the recent Supreme Court ruling, which I had not heard about.

Tell me, when you do confront somebody about gay marriage – as you requested me to do – do you confront any liberals, or only conservatives? If you confront only conservatives but nobody in your own party, then that would only make you a partisan hack, not to be taken seriously. You asked me to stand up to Amway and its founders; but have you yet stood up to Barack Obama, who is against gay marriage? Have you called him evil to his face (figuratively speaking) and withheld support from him? When you do stand up and oppose President Obama and others like him, then you may ask me to stand up to political conservatives (although I do that anyway, but of my own choosing).

Concerning Amway, you said, “The founders efforts and the company cannot be separated and therefore are both morally culpable, even if they have divested of the company(s), it’s their history.” That’s a bunch of hogwash, a rule that neither you nor any liberal would apply to yourselves. Liberals are filled with fallacious arguments like that, which have long banded them as hypocrites in the minds of conservatives. Amway does not support political causes. But the founder(s), Rich DeVos and Jay VanAndel (now dead), do, but with their own money, not somebody else’s. As a conservative, I believe people should have the right to speak their minds and donate to whomever they wish, whether they are liberal, conservative or otherwise. Liberals, I understand, believe only liberal people should have a right to speak their minds... as evidenced by conservatives being shouted down or “pied” by liberal audiences.

You asked me what conservatism means and what am I trying to conserve. The terms “conservatism” and “liberalism” no longer mean what they meant decades ago. To apply hundred-year-old meanings to modern-days words is a fallacy. Conservatism, today, means retaining liberty and rights in the hands of the people, which is what liberalism meant long ago. Liberalism, today, means putting power and money into the hands of the government, and the government into the hands of liberals. In other words, the modern day use of “conservatism” and “liberalism” are pretty much switched from what they were a hundred years ago. If you were a liberal in the old sense of the word, then you would be a conservative today.

Since there are millions of conservatives and liberals, I cannot tell you what is in the hearts and minds of each one. I can only tell you generally what many conservatives and I believe. So, here goes.

  1. Conservatives believe the best way to help poor people is to create a prosperous nation from which all people may benefit.
  2. Conservatives believe we should help the poor by strengthening them, but not destroy the poor by our “help.”
  3. Conservatives believe each person should be responsible for his/her own actions and livelihood.
  4. Conservatives believe all people are equal under the law, but not equal physically.
  5. Conservatives believe that liberal welfare has destroyed this nation and its poor people. It creates legions of people who are dependent on the government unnecessarily, who therefore vote for Democrats so that Democrats may continue giving them unmerited money.
  6. Conservatives believe liberals deliberately subvert American businesses in order to diminish them or drive them out of America altogether in order to create more people dependent on the government, and therefore voting Democrat in order to survive.

Items 3 and 4 contradict some social conservatives’ stand on gay marriage. If conservatives were true to their beliefs, then they should be the first to support gay people and gay marriage. I oppose them for that hypocrisy and tell them so.

There are many, many more beliefs that conservatives have, just as there are numerous beliefs liberals have, but that’s all I’ll write for now.

Again, great chatting with you.

Jerry
Los Angeles, CA


.

From:Paul
Sent: Sunday, February 05,
To: Jerry, RS
Subject: RE: Amway & Quixtar

Hi Jerry,

There is no intelligent bigotry. There is no intelligent zealotry. There is no intelligent punditry. There are no intelligent party whores. And there is no intelligent nor credible religion. If you find it too risky or difficult to speak up about the bigotry inside your Scamway organization, then by all means please don’t. I hope that when you do have something to say, you will be able to say it when you’re not drunk on “Kool-Aide” and when you’ve measured and weighted unbiased.

BTW - No party, nor common labels fit my views on issues. Your stated and implied assumptions about me… in error.

When I think, I know I think, therefore I know I am. Rhetorically, will you strive for the same?

Over and out,

P


.

From: Jerry
Sent: Monday, February 06
To: Paul
cc: RS, FY, JG, BH
Subject: Re: Amway & Quixtar

Wow, that meltdown didn’t take long. But that’s typical for liberals pretending to intelligently discuss issues with conservatives. Within minutes they degenerate to sputtering invectives and character assassination having nothing more to say; they’re out of ammunition. You even attacked my religion, which had nothing to do with our previous conversations.

Let’s review what happened. You contacted me when we hadn’t spoken to each other for months or maybe years. You egged me on, trying to get me to start a political fight with a company that you think I’m associated with. You even included FY and JG in the email, for who knows what reason. It seems obvious to me you were trying to make some political point, either with me and RS, or FY and JG.

I challenged you to verify what you said, and to do the same thing you asked me to do, that is, to hold yourself to the same standard you asked me to uphold. In your next email, you dropped FY and JG’s names from the cc list, which I assume means things were not going quite the way you had planned, so you wanted to cut your losses. You did answer one of my questions, for which I thank you, but you also gave an absurd argument in order to pressure me to write somebody and tell them how much I didn’t like them. I said your argument was hogwash, and you do first what you want me to do, before asking me to do it. Apparently you don’t like that level of responsibility.

And then your email came attacking me, my religion, my (assumed) profession and my politics. Perhaps you forgot my mother.

You said I had implied assumptions about you, but you didn’t say what they were. I don’t remember saying anything about you, Paul, but of course I have assumptions about you, just as you have assumptions about me. What’s new there? However, I did say some things about liberals in general. I am qualified to talk about liberals in general because they and their agenda are blatantly portrayed in the media every day. There’s nothing secret about it. What they think, believe and do are open for all to see.

I don’t at all understand your second to last sentence (the one before “Over and out”). But I suppose hysterical people do not always make sense.

Anyway, I enjoy talking politics, especially with you. It was great fun chatting. Do feel free to email me again, but remember you get no freebies. If you say something, I’ll reply to it.

Jerry Brown
Los Angeles, CA

 

 

rainbow line divider

Read well and be well read; buy a book